In the Laylu ve Ben podcast hosted by Evrim Sümer, the guests were clinical psychologist and gestalt therapist Prof. Dr. Hanna Nita Scherler and educational consultant Ateş Ataseven. The topic discussed was raising children from a Gestalt perspective, fostering fluidity in parenting, and achieving balance.

To listen to the Turkish language podcast, click HERE.

• Translation has been made with the help of chatGPT and may involve some translation erros and may effect the meaning. Our apoligies.

Evrim Sümer: Could you explain Gestalt to us a bit?

Hanna Nita Scherler: I teach, live, and advocate Gestalt as a philosophy of life. Rather than as a psychotherapeutic approach, I have embraced it as a philosophy of life that everyone can use in their daily lives, and I strive to promote its widespread adoption in this manner.

Gestalt literally means ‘whole.’ Let me try to explain what this could mean within the framework of parent-child relationships. Every parent strives to do what they believe is the best, the right thing, the utmost for their child. Whatever they do will become part of the whole. Theoretically, let’s say they show a lot of love, a lot of understanding, fulfill their needs, let’s not evaluate this as good or bad. Considering the tensions inherent in life, there is a polarity to this, meaning not showing love to the child, not fulfilling their wishes, and so on. You might ask, what parent wouldn’t want to fulfill their child’s wishes, to love them? Theoretically, in order for a child, especially in their adult life, to be prepared for encounters they may face, to not be surprised by them – we can think of it like a vaccination – every parent should mildly embarrass their child, mildly blame them, mildly withhold love, mildly reject them when they are young. It may sound strange when you listen, but especially if we look at Erik Erikson’s psychosocial development theory, he says exactly this. That is, shaping and molding every type of behavior they may encounter in life, much like formatting or educating. Gestalt is a mindfulness that encompasses everything possible, a lifestyle aimed at developing existence.

ES: During our preliminary discussion, you mentioned the stages of conscious development in a child up to the age of 18, and this got me really excited. Why? Because there were things like mistakes in these stages, indicators of the child, the child’s relationship with the parent, its reflection, problems, and how the parent will interpret this. Shall we delve into the stages of age a bit?

HNS: Let’s do it. Now, the conscious development I’m going to talk about will be excerpts from Ken Wilber’s “integral theory.” When I read it, it truly expanded my horizons; I am grateful to him.

Let me explain in terms of parenting: Every individual grows by seeking an answer to the question “who am I?” You might say a baby between 0-1 year old doesn’t ask the question “who am I.” True, they don’t ask it mentally, but they start to define whatever “I” is beneath this skin in the universe, actually.

Now, a baby between 0-1 year old is entirely dependent on the mother’s care, a being that will die if not fed or nourished. The awareness of a baby under 0-1 year old develops as inside the skin and outside the skin. How do they understand this? You know babies put their toes in their mouths; they register the difference between that sensation and the sensation of any toy they put in their mouth. And in this way, they can develop and establish the difference between what’s inside the skin and what’s outside the skin.

Theoretically, consciousness should progress from being positioned within the skin to encompassing what’s outside the skin and move through that stage, complete it. If consciousness remains stuck only within the skin during that stage, the child becomes “autistic.”

If consciousness is entirely positioned outside the skin, the child becomes “psychotic.” The boundary between self and other disappears. They can imagine that when someone walks down the street and looks into their eyes, they can understand what I’m thinking in the future.

ES/ So how does consciousness remain solely outside the skin? Because aren’t these actions instinctual? Looking at their hands, putting their foot in their mouth, hitting their head while moving their hand and feeling that pain… Are there situations where these can be prevented?

HNS/ For example, if a child is swaddled and not allowed to play with any toys, then they can’t feel… Between the ages of 2 and 3, the child’s physical identity has been established. They start to notice things like, “I’m crying, but my mother isn’t.”

“My mother is laughing, but I’m not.” It seems we have different feelings. This period is very important. Because between the ages of 1 and 2, when children start to articulate and lay the foundations of verbal communication with their parents, parents are very happy and excited. They applaud everything the child does, so the child is naturally reflected with grandeur. If this reflected grandeur exceeds a certain level, the child’s consciousness only revolves around their own feelings, and they become what we know as “narcissistic.”

If their consciousness is predominantly centered on the feelings of others, then they become “borderline.” For example, “Okay, my child, if you don’t want to eat, don’t eat, but I’m devastated when you don’t eat,” now should they eat or not… a dilemma. Or saying, “Okay, my child, don’t eat,” but then being upset because they didn’t eat.

ES/ I’ve noticed myself doing these things too. Saying, “Okay, don’t eat it, but then you’ll go to a different school,” things like that, so that’s wrong… Ateş, how did you handle the ages of 0-1-2-3 as a father of two?

Ateş Ataseven/ Öykü, my daughter, is 20 years old, and Alp, my son, is 14. For me, the period between 0-6 years was tremendously instructive yet somewhat perplexing. The moment my daughter was born, I had this connection in my mind, like, since I’m a father, my father became a grandfather, and I had a grandfather who is no longer here. It felt like it was my turn. Then I felt a great anxiety, wondering if I could take care of them, if I could raise them, if I would do the things that my mother and father did to me and that bothered me. Isn’t there a guide for these things? Why do they come without guidance? I remember my worries about how to behave, even a simple electronic device comes with an instruction manual, but these things don’t, how will we act?

The ages of 0-1 passed by quickly; I didn’t understand much, the majority of the burden was on the mother.

The period between 2-3 years stands out more in my mind. I remember feeling like she perceived me as someone else, like “mother and him,” as if the whole world belonged to the two of them. During that time, I was dealing with busy work, and I remember her occasionally saying, “now go home” to me. Years later, I discussed this with Nita. Honestly, it’s not true in my opinion.

ES/ Everyone’s character and life circumstances are different. As you said, she perceived me as a stranger at first. At the beginning, it’s the mother and the baby, they’re one, the father starts to become part of the child’s life later on.

HNS/ Especially after breastfeeding periods, but I see fathers too, when they’re around 1-2 months old, for example, they become much more involved, changing diapers, getting up, it’s a beautiful thing.

AA/ I never shied away from those kinds of things, although of course, most of it was handled by the mother. I have a funny story about “how fathers enter into the relationship between mother and child.”

When Öykü was in kindergarten, they had an evaluation at the end of the first month, they’re giving information about Öykü, she’s playing outside the door, we’re listening to the expert, they’ve drawn pictures, they’re analyzing from there, what she did, what she didn’t. She drew a picture, her mother and herself in one corner of the paper, proportional heights, she drew me covering 80% of the paper, a big head, a big body, and the expert said, “You occupy an important place in Öykü’s life, this is what it tells us.” I said, “We don’t experience it that way, she handles everything with her mother.” We got into a bit of an argument. Should we ask Öykü why she drew it like this? We called her over, the expert asked, “Why did you draw your father like this?” She answered, “Because my dad looks like Shrek.” You see, she drew what she sees, there’s not much of a deep story here. She drew me like that because I’m not petite. Even when they’re in a tight spot, their first words are “mom.” Their question at this age is “where’s mom?” In 9 out of 10 topics, the first person they look for is still their mothers. Not me. She’s the first thing that comes to their mind.

HNS/ The importance of the ages 2-3 is that, for the child, the mother and father are always either good or bad. A good mother. Or always bad. At the age of 2-3, the child is like, “Oh, my mom is good sometimes and bad sometimes, so they don’t know how to mix good and bad in the same pot.

The biggest challenge is at 2-3. If they can’t handle this with the help of their parents, they become “borderline.” So in later life, they’ll give emotional credit to a friend. The first thing they say when I’ve done something they don’t like is “then I don’t want you,” and then when I do something good, it’s “okay, I want you.” Then again, “I don’t want you.” Life doesn’t work like that. That’s the most important lesson of ages 2-3.

At the age of 4-5, they have thoroughly learned language and mastered it, so the answer they give to the question “who am I?” shifts from my physical body, my emotional body to “I am my mind”, I can speak, I can think.

Now that language is spoken, children now emerge from the paradise of the present and here. Whatever existed before language is now present. There’s no yesterday, no tomorrow, no abstract thought.

When they discover speech at the age of 4-5, that’s when they say, “these are my thoughts,” they discover it. There are thoughts I can share with others, thoughts I can keep to myself. They discover that. At the age of 4-5, it coincides with the time Freud developed his theory, encountering neurotic individuals, like this:

If consciousness, at the age of 4-5, is predominantly situated in the mind and rejects the body, it becomes what we know as a “neurotic person.”

If consciousness is predominantly situated in the body, it becomes an “impulsive person,” like, what are you looking at, wanna fight. That kind of person.

If consciousness is situated in thoughts accepted by others, there’s a pathology we call “script pathology,” meaning they become someone who seeks to please others, who seeks acceptance from others.

If my consciousness is situated in thoughts I won’t share with others, it becomes an “antisocial person.”

ES/ That was a fantastic guideline. Ateş, would you like to add something about the more practical implications of these?

AA/ Everything you said resonates with me; I understand once again that I harbor all of them in different doses.

HNS/ But that’s normal.

AA/ There must be some reflection of the different doses I carry within me towards them, unintentionally. That’s why I think they also experience these in varying degrees. One strange thing I’ve noticed is that two children growing up under the same conditions can be two different individuals. I think they began to differentiate precisely after the age of 4-5. For example, one might be very impatient, the other very indecisive. Together, they create a double storm. I tend to think about myself rather than the children in these narratives.

ES/ I also thought more about myself than Leyla in this narrative. For example, age 4 was one of the most challenging years for me; very stubborn, headstrong, always wanting something different if given a choice. After 6, it’s much sweeter, you can do things together, they become quite knowledgeable.

AA/ My experience is like this; terrible 2, incredible 3, unbelievable 4, OMG 5… Now, for example, I still feel like what to do with 20. I realize these don’t end. Because they have their own tests too. They’re also exploring me, themselves, their relationships.

Asking yourself questions is one of the things I’ve learned from Nita, I think it’s a good thing. Am I a good father? Am I a good person? Even if there’s no answer when I’m immersed in what I can do, sometimes just asking the right question is enough. It’s okay to stay in the question.

HNS/ Between the ages of 6-11, as I mentioned earlier, whether one’s thoughts are accepted by others or not, it either becomes script pathology or an antisocial person.

11-18, the theory says 18, but I’m not one of those who think adolescence ends at 18 in Turkey; I believe it lasts a bit longer, we can extend it into the 20s.

ES/ It seems to last a bit longer in boys, doesn’t it?

HNS/ I don’t differentiate between boys and girls, generally, our adolescence doesn’t end at 18. During adolescence, the task of consciousness is as follows: I have a physical body, I have emotions, I have thoughts that I share or don’t share with others, the same applies to others, I need to be able to think about all of these in a holistic way, accept them, and be able to apply them, so I call this “forming an abstract backbone.” Just as we have a concrete backbone, children who can form this abstract backbone have formed an identity. Children who cannot form this often experience an identity crisis. Who am I, what are my emotions, what do I want, where do I begin, where do I end… Children who are still searching experience chaos.

ES/ Adolescence also involves hormones, what is the most important thing during this period? Is it the attitude of the family? It could be the family’s philosophy or behavior style. Apart from that, there are thousands of people they encounter, schools, buses, streets…

HNS/ During this period, the adolescent’s sense of belonging shifts from the family to peers, and the answer to the question “where do I belong?” is more often found in peers than in the family. The family is seen as a secure harbor that will encompass them, comfort them, and guide them on the right path when there is a problem with peers or in life outside the home. This is quite natural.

AA/ I read something on social media about parents being pushed away during adolescence, and I remember behaving rebelliously myself. I read it like this: Adolescence is a period that ensures parents not to get too upset when children go away.

ES/ I like the saying “mental illness is hereditary, it passes from children to parents.” When you look at Turkish parents, what are the most common mistakes we make? Can you say something about that?

HNS/ I’m not particularly fond of such generalizations. Especially as a Gestalt practitioner, I believe that each individual should be evaluated in their own context, that each individual will find meaning in their own context. But I can say this: whatever upsets or angers parents about their children’s behavior, I can confidently say that it presents an invaluable opportunity for integration, maturation, and personal growth for the parent.

It’s not the child’s behavior itself that makes the parent happy or unhappy, but the meaning the parent attributes to that behavior. Therefore, whether consciously or not, as parents, we evaluate, interpret, and respond to our children based on the values ​​and beliefs we have learned and internalized. When a child’s behavior falls outside our cognitive framework, the initial reaction of parents is usually to try to fit the child’s behavior into their own cognitive framework. Instead, perhaps we should ask ourselves, are there ways to expand our own value or belief frameworks to encompass the child’s behavior?

ES/ Could you explain the importance of not giving everything your child wants?

HNS/ Children learn and internalize thought, emotion, and behavior patterns within the family they are born and raised in. Theoretically, these are imprinted as mental images in the child’s brain. According to Gestalt psychology, human phenomena are not perceived in parts but as a whole.

What does this mean? When a thought, emotion, or behavior that matches the pattern in my mind is triggered, the entire pattern in my mind is activated. Therefore, I try to make sense of that phenomenon with the entirety of that pattern in mind. So what will the child learn? “Whatever I want is done. I am valuable, what I want happens.”

They will internalize this. But when they go outside the home and their every wish is not met like it is by their parents, they will feel like a fish out of water. In work, relationships, friendships. Therefore, they should be inoculated with exposure to all kinds of behaviors they may encounter from the beginning. Finding ways to develop their abstract muscles at home while they are still children is crucial. A little unfulfilled desire, a little sadness, a little rejection, a little anger towards parents—these are very beneficial experiences.

ES/ How about addressing children as “mommy,” “daddy,” “sweetheart,” “darling”?

AA/ We must have said it before, I’m thinking about what I said, I say “daddy,” I can’t remember what I said recently.

HNS/ I don’t see a problem with “sweetheart” or “darling” for children, but addressing a child as “mommy” or “daddy,” or a sister as “sissy”… where did that come from? This form of address wasn’t present in my childhood. Theoretically, there are significant drawbacks.

AA/ There are also forms of address like “ask our mom,” “ask our dad.”

HNS/ Or sentences like “our dad is very angry.” It puts oneself in a childlike position.

The concept of contact lies at the heart of the Gestalt perspective. Contact is crucial. I can make contact not only with others but also with the parts I contain within myself—my emotions, body, thoughts, and spirituality. When a parent constructs sentences in interaction with the child like “I, as your father, think this way, feel this way,” it invites and facilitates the child to clarify their own emotional, mental, and physical boundaries. The clearer a child defines their boundaries in terms of all the resources they contain, the more fulfilling their internal completion and growth will be. But if a child calls their grandfather “grandma,” there is ambiguity about where I start and end, and where they start and end—there’s a vagueness in the air. Ambiguity gradually makes contact boundaries less distinct.

Let me explain with a metaphor: each of us is both a plane and an airport. If I don’t clearly delineate the lines of the runway where planes will land from a distance, and if I don’t illuminate them visibly at night, how will you know where to land as a plane?

ES/ Calling a child “mommy” or “daddy” also prevents the child from finding themselves, but I understand it like this: Children are more vulnerable at a young age, so I don’t see a problem with calling a growing child “mommy” or “daddy” after 6 or 7 years old. It’s like a show of love.

HNS/ No, why should it be a show of love?

Lastly, I recommend that parents label their children’s emotions. Suppose a child wants chocolate but their mother doesn’t buy it, and the child gets upset or sad. The mother can say to the child, “I didn’t buy you chocolate, so you might be mad at me, and that’s okay, or you might be sad, that’s okay too. Sometimes we don’t get what we want, and we can react by getting angry or sad.” What does this teach? That there’s room for all emotions in the spectrum of human experience, and it’s normal to experience them. Allowing emotions to be felt and expressed is crucial.

AA/ About myself, I can say this: I never stop worrying about children. It can be controlled, not turning into panic, but I can’t set aside my concerns about their future. I guess it will continue like this.

HNS/ Do you load the duty of reducing anxiety onto your children?

AA/ More about economic conditions, issues related to the geography we live in, constantly fuel that anxiety.

ES/ Is that anxiety healthy as long as it doesn’t disrupt my daily life and relationship with the children?

HNS/ Let’s say it’s natural.

AA/ At some point in my life, I want to experience the inner peace of this: They’ve established their routines, found the environment where they’ll be happy, and there’s nothing left of my self here.

HNS/ What’s your connection to this? Are you aware of this thought? I’ve done my duty, I’m a sufficient father.

AA/ Of course, I’ve been Nita’s student for many years, it’s a topic we’ve talked about a lot, there’s the concept of inadequacy rooted in me.

ES/My grandmothers saying was: If a child is the money in the bank, then my grandchild is the interest on it, and enjoying it is the sweetest. I really had an epiphany today. Thank you all.