On April 8, 2021, Gestalt therapist and clinical psychologist Professor Dr. Hanna Nita Scherler appeared as a guest on Romina Özipekçi’s program “Rominight,” which was broadcasted. With the esteemed permission of my mentor, I have transcribed this enjoyable discussion on Gestalt therapy to share insights with those interested in learning about it, who are conducting research, or who may not be aware of the YouTube video. This effort is aimed at disseminating valuable information to a broader audience.

Romina Özipekçi (RÖ): Welcome. Dr. Nita is a clinical psychologist and Gestalt therapist who provides support to individuals and couples using this approach. Nearly everyone is familiar with the idea of visiting a psychologist or psychiatrist and has some understanding of what happens there. However, psychology itself is divided into various branches, one of which is Gestalt. For those unfamiliar, how would you explain what Gestalt is?

Hanna Nita Scherler (HNS): While briefly introducing myself, I must mention that I am currently teaching at Hasan Kalyoncu University, a place that brings me great joy. Yes, I am very fond of my university. I feel saddened that I could not visit Gaziantep due to the pandemic. I wanted to seize this opportunity to talk a bit about it.

The term “Gestalt” means whole or complete. Based on the meaning of the word, the Gestalt approach can be described as a methodology that supports the integration of the individual. You might rightly ask what this integration entails—are we incomplete to need integration? Let me explain, as those who have listened to me before might know, the humanistic approach is a crucial pillar of the Gestalt perspective. The humanistic approach posits that human behavior is driven and structured by the motivation for self-actualization. What is self-actualization? Aren’t we real already? What does it have to do with integration? How do I connect all this?

If I were to explain metaphorically, the humanistic approach assumes that every person is born with keys on a piano keyboard. In other words, every individual is born from the same source. Let’s say this source is akin to the 88 keys on a piano keyboard, and each person is born with these 88 keys. A self-actualized individual is aware of all these keys they possess within their existential realm. We already possess them, but we are not aware of them. Why aren’t we aware? Because from the moment of our birth, the culture and family in which we are raised teach us what is right and wrong, what is acceptable and unacceptable, very effectively. Children quickly learn and internalize this. I call it being formatted by social software. As a result of this social formatting, we make sense of our lives using only the keys that are deemed acceptable by our parents and subculture. So, perhaps I play 30 out of the 88 keys, while you play 35. Gestalt therapy says, “Okay, you’re playing 35 out of 88 keys. Let me show you how to progress from 35 to 88, how to move beyond the keys not allowed by social software. How can you incorporate them into your perception and understanding of life?” It’s essentially an approach that says, “Let me show you how to integrate yourself with the experiences you encounter on your life journey.” That’s why it’s about being whole and complete—it’s a path that guides individuals on how to approach integrating themselves with the experiences they encounter in life.

RÖ/ The clients who come to you are undoubtedly experiencing psychological distress, a breakdown, depression, or whatever you want to call it, due to their experiences. You identify what has collapsed at that point, what aspects of their integrity have been disrupted, and then proceed with this approach to rectify it. Am I understanding correctly?

HNS/ I’d like to phrase it with slight modifications: In my personal view, nothing is truly broken in anyone’s life, and no therapeutic approach can fix what’s broken. It’s something that can only be determined by the individual’s own will. What I do is this: My clients often come to me with a difficulty they’re facing in their lives. How do they know they’re experiencing difficulty? If they’re feeling a more pronounced pain, anxiety, anger, or sadness than usual, they come with a curiosity of “this is a bit more pronounced than usual, what’s happening here?” When they come, they typically have in mind the desire for this pain to ease, this sadness to pass, this anger to subside, or this anxiety to fade away. When I listen to them, I use the framework provided by the Gestalt perspective to help them understand how this approach perceives these kinds of difficulties.

Here’s how I put it: Yes, this is a struggle, but this struggle is actually an opportunity, a call for integration, an invitation for wholeness. Using the piano metaphor, I explain to them that their current struggles are like keys that are not allowed to be played by the social software, yet they are screaming to be heard. So, underneath this pain, this anxiety, this anger, there lies a very important message that needs to be acknowledged if one leans into it with awareness. This message essentially speaks its own language through symptoms, saying, “Hey, buddy, the way your life has been shaped up until now isn’t cutting it anymore; you need more keys in your life. I’m pushing you to realize that there are other keys to be played here. Let me show you.” That’s what I try to convey.

RÖ/ You’ve written the symptom’s script. Are these kinds of breakdowns indicative of a new quest within the human spirit? In other words, when you’re confined within a mold, is something trying to burst out? Are these symptoms always indicative of something positive?

HNS/ Life is neither indicative of good nor bad; it simply reflects what it is. In my view, circumstances are what they are. There are no inherently good or bad trees in nature, no inherently good or bad rabbits; things simply are. We attribute the meanings of good or bad with our minds. Every difficulty actually harbors an opportunity for change. If a person chooses to seize that opportunity… If they choose not to, they may find solace within that sadness, anxiety, or anger, whatever it may be. However, in my opinion, although they may find solace within that time frame, if they haven’t addressed the underlying issue, whatever keys they haven’t started playing, they will eventually manifest themselves in different problems, with different people, or in different organizations sooner or later.

RÖ/ Why does a person resist change when they encounter difficulty?

HNS/ That’s a great question because complaining, blaming others, and portraying oneself as a victim are much easier. There’s no choice to be made, no responsibility to be taken, no consequences to bear. But when a person perceives their current situation as a call to differentiation, as an invitation to change, and decides to step into the uncertain territory: 1. They are alone. 2. They are on an unfamiliar path, a path that doesn’t feel familiar to them. They don’t know what they will experience. They have made a choice, and there will be consequences, which they’ll have to bear. And because they have chosen this path of their own free will, there will be no one to blame in the end.

RÖ/ For a person to feel good about themselves, there needs to be someone to blame, if they’re in that state of mind, right?

HNS/ If the struggling individual isn’t willing to embark on the path of self-improvement, they will prefer to remain in complaint mode. It’s easier that way.

RÖ/ Isn’t this applicable to all of humanity? How is it that billions of people have developed their emotions and behaviors in the same direction? We’re inclined to blame others in all countries, isn’t there supposed to be uniqueness?

HNS/ Evolution is universal. Development is universal. But how one evolves, how one develops is individual. In other words, let’s say every person is born at 50 cm and dies at least at 1.5 meters, everyone grows taller, which is universal, but what one experiences while growing taller is individual.

RÖ/ What you just mentioned about what you’ve gained from the culture you were born into and from your family, these are certainly factors in development. But then there’s the question: if there’s a correct way of living, Nita’s way, Romina’s way, there must also be an inherent truth within each individual. So, which truth is the true one?

HNS/ That’s a great question, let me respond this way: Romina’s and Nita’s truths are the truths that have been written, drawn, learned, and internalized by their mental processes and social programming. It’s unavoidable; as humans, we have our own value judgments, beliefs, assumptions—those are inherent. The problem isn’t that they exist; the problem arises when we perceive them as absolute once we’ve learned them and then confine ourselves within their boundaries. How does the Gestalt perspective look at this? Let me take it from there; there are many people like Nita and Romina, and each person encounters various individuals in different environments throughout their lives. Sometimes they meet people whose value judgments align with theirs, and sometimes they encounter those whose values don’t. From a Gestalt perspective, encountering people with different value judgments is necessary for integration, so that one might say, “Oh, the keys I play are different from theirs.” Initially, I might say to Romina, “There’s no room for your keys; mine are correct, leave yours and come to mine,” or I might say, “There was no room for my keys; I’m leaving mine and coming to yours.” The Gestalt perspective says that every key has its place in life; neither mine are entirely right nor wrong, nor are someone else’s entirely right or wrong.

Growing up, maturing means that when I encounter people with different value judgments, I broaden my own values to encompass theirs. How can I expand my own values to include theirs? How can I embrace diversity instantly? How can I hold diversity in one place? The skill is to encompass the truths of many people. You mentioned there’s also an essence within the problem, let me address that: According to the Gestalt perspective, a person is a part of a larger whole to which they belong. We are energies or vibrations manifested in our physical bodies. Each of us carries a unique vibration, but when all of our vibrations come together, they create the 88 keys, meaning we are all part of a larger whole. Therefore, my essence is no different from that of a person in China. Why do millions of people admire a sculpture by Michelangelo when they see it? Why do millions of people admire the Mona Lisa painting? What drives many people to admire these works of art?

It’s this: These masters, these artists, when creating these works, have come closest to their essence. Therefore, the works they produce are representations, manifestations of their deepest essence. If we are all part of the same whole, then because Michelangelo’s essence is the same as mine, when I look at his sculpture, I see and am moved by my own essence. That’s the crux of it, really.

RÖ/ Regardless of the subculture we are born into and raised in, regardless of which part of the world we live in, because you said that inherent in human nature is the good, the right, the aesthetic, the beautiful, the ugly, whatever it may be, encompassing all aspects of reality, both good and bad, I say this: We can approach our essence, but perhaps due to that social programming, we may mistakenly believe it to be correct and continue in that vein. Or perhaps their social programming is clouded by unawareness, and they continue in such an environment as a result.

HNS/ Let’s assume that all the colors that could be on an artist’s palette are available. We all have this palette, but we don’t all use all these colors. We use the colors our parents tell us to use. Within the whole, there is a murderer, a poet, a pianist; everything is there. Everyone harbors all these possibilities, but everyone lives life using the colors defined by the subculture in which they were born and raised. And according to the assumption of the Gestalt perspective, we live our lives aiming to use all the colors on that palette we believe we possess. All experiences serve as tools to recognize those colors and to be able to use them. That’s the goal.

RÖ/ You know, it’s a matter of the mind. I’ve discussed this with colleagues, even with a neuroscientist friend. What do you say? What’s your take? The mind, it’s something that creates its own reality, isn’t it? When you get caught up in it, you can enter a completely different reality. There are advanced stages of this phenomenon. Or think about it: nine out of ten people you bump into on the street are living in the same reality. We can create a different reality influenced by the subculture we were born into. We also possess the basic knowledge that the mind does this to keep us standing and alive. Our ancestral responses of fight-flight-freeze for survival have evolved over generations, but in modern times, they’ve transformed into anxieties, stresses, becoming increasingly prevalent. Why doesn’t the mind offer a different approach to today’s modern life with the fight-flight responses it has produced? We’re still living with the fear of being chased by lions, metaphorically speaking. Is it possible to change this? Can we teach the brain something new from the outside?

HNS/ Answering this question solely with the mind is not possible; the fight-flight-freeze response isn’t solely about the mind, it’s about emotions. If we look at emotions in their purest form, untouched by mental processes, there are a few. For instance, Paul Ekman suggests that there are fundamentally six emotions, with all other emotions being mixed with mental processes. These six basic emotions are happiness, sadness, anger, disgust, fear, and surprise. He argues that all other emotions are variations mixed with mental processes of these basic emotions.

RÖ/ What’s left then?

HNS/ There’s jealousy, there’s passion, there’s anxiety…

The six emotions I’ve mentioned are those that a baby experiences and demonstrates even before learning to speak. Emmy Van Deurzen, who adopts an existential approach, has an insightful section related to the ‘fight or flight’ response. She states that no matter how developed your mind might be, the fundamental emotions we experience remain unchanged. It’s only the context in which we experience these emotions that shifts. For instance, the emotions of happiness, anger, sadness, and courage exist both at the age of one and ninety. The cellular manifestation of happiness, anger, or courage in the body is the same at one year old as it is at ninety. However, what causes sadness or anger may change as we age from five to fifteen to twenty-five, but the emotion itself stays consistent.

RÖ/ The way we experience anger also evolves, doesn’t it?

HNS/ This change is related to our perceptions, influenced by social conditioning.

RÖ/ Eckhart Tolle refers to these as “secondary emotions.”

HNS/ Yes, Arieti has conducted research in this area and categorizes emotions under three headings:

1. The first category includes the six primary emotions I mentioned, which are unadulterated by cognitive processes.
2. The second category contains emotions somewhat clouded by mental processes, such as anxiety.
3. The third category is predominantly cognitive, with emotion following; for instance, resentment. Arieti notes that to experience resentment, one must first engage in cognitive processes, remembering things like “they did this to me, then that happened,” to maintain that emotion. Or consider depression; to sustain that state, one must constantly recall the negatives from the past, perceiving everything as bad in the past, present, and future.

RÖ/ İçinde yaşadığımız dünyanın koşulları olarak söyleyeyim hem de içine doğduğumuz ailelerin alışkanlıklarından ötürü, geçmişi hatırlamadan, eski defterleri hatırlamadan yaşamak kolay değil. Uzun zamandır kendimi izliyorum, geçmişten getirdiğim öyle çok kaygım, düşüncem, taze tuttuğum hikayeler var ki, diyorum ki, heralde insanoğlunun gerçekten çok boş vakti var ki yaşamının büyük bölümünü bunlara ayırabiliyor. Niye yapıyoruz bunu?

HNS/ Whether we intend to or not, we are all part of an evolutionary process. This includes our emotions, physical bodies, minds, spirits, kinesthetic senses, and relationships. We are constantly in motion, continually developing. Even if we were to sit idle like a potato, doing nothing, we would still be evolving. Development is like this (holding up an eraser in the palm of her hand, for demonstration)—imagine this eraser represents something I am proud of or consider a success, and I hold onto it tightly.

Development means this: while firmly holding on to something, we are unable to grasp anything new. To progress, I must let go of the old to make room for the new. Humans, by nature, desire growth yet simultaneously resist letting go of what we currently hold. We often want to accumulate without giving anything up, but that is not feasible. We must be willing to release what we have in order to seize new opportunities. We tend to fear that what we let go will drift away, but that’s not the case. What we release makes room for what we will next embrace. We incorporate both the old and the new together. Then, we lay them on a larger foundation, eventually holding all three. We continually transcend the old as we progress, but without experiencing this, we seek assurances for the unknown: “Tell me what will happen if I let go…” Life, however, does not operate like that.

RÖ/ Byron Katie, I believe, once said that life is always more benevolent and generous than our thoughts. When I look at my own life, it often seems to communicate through such sentiments, and honestly, that’s the perspective I choose to embrace. After a certain age, my life naturally gravitated toward this, particularly within Gestalt therapy, which incorporates a more humanistic approach. Where does it derive its foundational principles?

HNS: The roots of Gestalt therapy are extensive. It has incorporated elements from psychoanalysis, drawn from Jung, field theory, Gestalt psychology itself, humanistic existential approaches, and phenomenology; it employs phenomenology as its methodology. It has also integrated aspects of psychodrama, with some of its most significant influences coming from Zen Buddhism and Taoism. So, it has a very broad base.

RÖ: Now we understand the differences between traditional psychology and the Gestalt approach. If there’s anything particularly distinct that you would like to highlight, I would like to hear it.

HNS: Gestalt therapy is a method that operates in the “here and now.” This means that in therapy, clients don’t just talk about things.

For example: A client might say, “My mother was like this, my father was like that.” A Gestalt therapist would suggest, “Instead of talking about your parents as if they are not here, act as if they are present and you are speaking directly to them.” Or if a client is discussing a feeling about someone, the therapist might suggest they express their feelings as if that person were actually there. The idea is not just to talk about something, but to bring whatever is discussed into the present moment.

The reason for this is that talking about something tends to keep a person mainly in the mental realm, but bringing discussions into the here and now activates all four dimensions of being—physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual. This provides an opportunity to experience the immediate impact of the discussion across these four dimensions. Thus, working in the here and now is a hallmark of phenomenological methodology and a significant distinction from other approaches.

RÖ: You mentioned the use of psychodrama in this context.

HNS: Yes, techniques like the empty chair and role-playing are utilized in psychodrama.

RÖ: Last week on my show, I hosted Feride Gürsoy, who conducts family constellations and uses psychodrama in her practice. Has she been influenced by Gestalt therapy as well?

HNS: They look at the same whole from different perspectives. In my view, there is only one truth being discussed, not multiple truths. Thus, psychodrama views this truth from one angle, while Gestalt views it from another. The analytical approach looks at it from yet another angle. We are all looking at the same truth.

RÖ: What are you referring to? The essence?

HNS: Yes, of course, the essence.

RÖ: So, you apply this approach in relationships as well, and I’ve even seen dream work done using the Gestalt approach. What is that about?

HNS: Dreams are one of the most significant areas where a person can perceive the untouched keys, symbolically speaking. Remember when I mentioned those untouched keys and their cries being a form of pain, anxiety, anger, or sadness? Well, another way those keys cry out is through the symbols seen in dreams. So, dream work allows for a deeper exploration of the self.

RÖ: Can you provide a specific example of what happens in dream work? Because it’s essential to differentiate this from what’s commonly known as dream interpretation. How are those symbols and behaviors interpreted in the context of a person’s life?

HNS: From a Gestalt perspective, dream work also utilizes phenomenological methodology. There’s no interpretation in the Gestalt approach; there’s only description and depiction. In a dream, every element that one sees is spoken from the first-person perspective. So, I can’t interpret your dream; as a Gestalt therapist, I provide you with a space and support for you to articulate your dream from your perspective. Each person who experiences the dream must unfold it from their own framework. It can’t come from my framework because if I were to say something about your dream, I’d be saying something about myself.

RÖ: What does that mean?

HNS: For example, let’s say you dreamt of a cat eating from a bowl, and then I petted the cat. I’d say to my client, “There was a cat in the dream, you were there, there was a bowl, and there was food in the bowl. Now, narrate the dream to me as the cat, as the bowl, and as the food in the bowl.”

The point is this: some of these elements represent the keys the person is already playing, while others represent the keys they haven’t yet played, waiting to be discovered. When they articulate these undiscovered keys, they might notice a difference in their body or emotions, an overflow of energy, and from there, we understand which keys aren’t being played. Then, we start working from there and continue the process.

RÖ: So, is that different energy the person feels something you can also perceive externally, with a gesture or facial expression? Or is it something only the person can feel internally? Also, for someone to notice this, do they need to be fully in tune with their emotions?

HNS: When working with a Gestalt therapist, if the person is completely new to this method, they may need some warm-up sessions to get used to it. Some people are very receptive to it, but others may resist it. It’s possible.

RÖ: Is every dream meaningful?

HNS: Absolutely, every dream is meaningful.

RÖ: Sometimes what we see in dreams is connected to something we experienced a few days ago, it’s like a metaphor, we say, “Oh, I experienced that last week, and now I dreamt about it.”

HNS: It doesn’t matter; if they saw it in their dream that day, it definitely has a meaning.

RÖ: Every dream has some kind of meaning, useful or not.

HNS: I don’t know about the ones that don’t serve a purpose.

RÖ: Since you mentioned it, could you elaborate a bit?

HNS: Dreams are messages from the subconscious. If someone remembers their dream, it means they are ready to perceive the message from their subconscious, their moment of enlightenment has come. Everyone dreams, but not everyone remembers what they dreamt when they wake up. Remembered dreams usually contain a message and are worth exploring.

RÖ: Alright… what do people come to you for the most?

HNS: They mostly come for relational issues. It could be about family or work-related problems. It could involve the relationship between a boss and an employee, someone who has become a manager and now has to manage more people, marital issues, sibling relationships; there are relational issues wherever there are people.

RÖ: It seems like a very enjoyable therapy method.

HNS: It’s very enjoyable, so it’s not too serious; we can laugh and have fun too.

RÖ: Do people cry during a regular psychotherapy session as well?

HNS: Of course. Therapy is a reflection of life, and all aspects of life are welcome.

RÖ: Accepting everything that’s opposite is ideal, but it takes quite a bit of effort to get to that point.

HNS: It does, yes. One needs to embark on a journey of mindful living, not blindly, but deliberately. What do I need right now, and why am I doing this behavior? Is it out of habit, or is it to support me towards a specific goal?

RÖ: Can you give a practical explanation or solution for breaking free from automatic thoughts?

HNS: Take 5 deep breaths and then proceed.

Thank you.